rottenboysclub:

auntiewanda:

rottenboysclub:

rottenboysclub:

who-gives-a-ship:

auntiewanda:

who-gives-a-ship:

auntiewanda:

tervenpriestess:

s-the-empress:

terfyfem:

who-gives-a-ship:

terfyfem:

who-gives-a-ship:

terfyfem:

who-gives-a-ship:

Anyway, the word fujoshi has no business being thrown around in discourse that isn’t about BL anime and manga. It is not a sexuality or a gender identity. It does not mean ‘transtrenders’ or mlm trans men or afab people who use mogai identities. It means a female (or female-aligned) fan of BL anime and manga, which is a specific subgenre of romance that focuses on m/m relationships, typically highlighting the emotions between characters and often using a heavily shoujo-inspired art style.

So a girl that fetishises gay people.

Nope. A female or female-aligned fan of BL. It doesn’t describe how someone treats real life gay people.

Lmao mate, I used to be a fujo. I know the community

I interact with fujoshi every day. I identify as a fujin (gender neutral BL fan). I get my information on BL history from gay men who speak Japanese and I’m learning the language myself to better interact with the Japanese BL community on sites like Pixiv. I’m active in two BL servers. You know what I see there? Fans being positive and kind to one another, and respectful of other people’s identities. There are gay men, gay women, and nonbinary people of all orientations brought together by a common interest in BL, not some kind of shared objectification. I’m not an expert on the subgenre or its fans, but do you really want to claim that you have more experience with fujoshi than me? Do you know what a Japanese word means better than my Japanese-speaking friends?

I probably shouldn’t be wasting my time arguing with someone who has terf in their url, but it’s just such a simple point to make. That’s the definition of the word. It doesn’t belong in discourse that has nothing to do with BL anime and manga.

Yeah yeah

Keep being delusional

“Fujin”

I don’t think gender effects whether something is or isn’t fetishization?

> Fujin

> Gender neutral 

OP probably won’t even understand why that’s so funny. You know fujoshi is a derogatory term that means “rotten woman” right? 

The reason why people continue to use it in a derogatory manner for heterosexual women who call themselves “gay trans boys” is because most of them are obsessively into BL and yaoi and take their cues from it. Which is absolutely unrealistic fetishization of gay male relationships written by women for women. In a very conservative country that still isn’t very progressive about gay people. And has zero to do with gay culture. The stuff actually aimed at gay men in Japan is quite different.

So to illustrate my point:

Aimed at, and typically authored by, straight women:

Aimed at, and typically authored by, gay men:

Can you spot the difference? 

Written by a man:

I’d list female geicomi mangaka, but that information is very difficult to find in English, along with really anything about geicomi. You picked Gengoroh Tagame, who is pretty much the one name that gets thrown around on English language sites. @rottenboysclub if you’re not too busy, can you help out please? I really don’t know much about geicomi.

Geicomi (what the west calls bara) is mostly pornography, plain and simple. It very commonly involves BDSM and other kinks. Tagame’s work in particular has been described as “S&M theatre” by a gay Japanese media critic. His manga almost exclusively feature stories about rape and assault. So not the perfect representation you were looking for.

And yeah, I know what fujoshi means. There’s also fudanshi, which means a male BL fan or ‘rotten boy’. It’s a reclaimed insult originally used by misogynists to condemn women for enjoying sexually explicit media. Also, it’s a pun.

I’d say more, but I have a plane to catch. Suffice to say, there are plenty of queer female, nonbinary, and queer male BL mangaka, although many mangaka choose not to discuss stuff like that publicly.

So you and several other posters seem to be saying “b-b-but Tagame writes BDSM and rape” and focusing on that instead of the point that BL and yaoi is by straight women for straight women. I’m not saying anything about “representation” or “wholesomeness” here. And it’s hilarious you’re gonna pretend BL and yaoi doesn’t often feature coercion and rape, especially after posting an image of an older man groping a young boy in chains. 

But we’re not talking about problematic themes in drawn porn. This whole thing of young women into BL and yaoi turning around and hopping on the trans trend is stemming from nothing new. Back in the day plenty of yaoi obsessed straight girls and young women would say shit like “I read so much of this I’m basically a gay man deep down”. You know despite, again, BL and yaoi reflects nothing realistic about gay men or the gay community. Hell the stuff that reaches the mainstream often goes out of its way to no homo the characters in some way.

I don’t think it’s any coincidence you turn up your nose at geicomi, porn actually aimed at gay men, while idolizing your porn aimed at straight women that typically features a grown man and a girlish boy a his mercy.

You seem to have misunderstood. I don’t care if anyone writes BDSM and erotica that involves rape. In fact, I enjoy (and write) it myself sometimes. I’m not saying that BL is ‘better’ than geicomi, just that they aren’t all that different. The difference is in preference for art style, body type, and story focus. BL involves plenty of rape. I’ve seen a lot of people who try to pretend geicomi doesn’t and it super does.

And no, BL doesn’t make people decide to become trans. How do I know? I used to be a woman into BL myself. I’m now a nonbinary trans man. But the difference is I’m not attracted to men. I previously called myself a lesbian and I still am only attracted to women. Being trans isn’t because I’m chasing some idealized BL relationship, it’s because I’m trans.

Anti fujos, this is where your arguments come from. The whole anti fujoshi movement is based on radfem talking points. It’s time to stop pretending like putting “no terfs” in your description will do anything and actually look at who promotes these same ideas.

My reply will probably, once again, be ignored, but there’s a lot of stuff that needs to be addrssed here.

So you and several other posters seem to be saying “b-b-but Tagame
writes BDSM and rape” and focusing on that instead of the point that BL
and yaoi is by straight women for straight women.

We
already established that isn’t the case. There are many male BL
writers, and according to Tagame himself (who has worked with many BL
mangaka and on BL magazines) the female writers of BL are often actually
closeted lesbians and who will also write yuri comics under a different
pen-name. (x) (x) ((Offhand, I know that Taishi Zaou and her partner/manager Eiki Eiki write both BL and yuri manga together.))

BL is marketed to women because it often focuses on romance, because traditionally in Japan, romance stories of couples of any gender (mxf, mxm and fxf) were considered to be only appealing to women. Not to mention the OP of the post is exclusively attracted to women.

And it’s hilarious you’re gonna pretend BL and yaoi doesn’t often
feature coercion and rape, especially after posting an image of an
older man groping a young boy in chains.

I don’t believe anyone stated that BL doesn’t contain problematic themes – just that geicomi also contains them. And straight ero and shoujo/josei manga. That it isn’t a BL-specific thing, but a problem that pertains to all romance and erotica in Japan. If you’re interested in mxm comics without those sorts of things,
feminist fujoshi has a list of 100% consensual BL manga so that you can
avoid those topics. (x) Also that picture? Yeah, it’s drawn by a man. The manga it’s from is written by two men. That was why they posted it.

But we’re not talking about problematic themes in drawn porn.

Really?

This whole thing of young women into BL and yaoi turning around and
hopping on the trans trend is stemming from nothing new. Back in the day
plenty of yaoi obsessed straight girls and young women would say shit
like “I read so much of this I’m basically a gay man deep down”.

This
seems like a personal annecdote. Many fujoshi I’ve met are lesbian or
bisexual. (which makes sense…I mean, wlw are the most likely kind of women who
would read about gay men because they’re also gay, but I guess it depends what kind of community and the kind of people you go out of your way to interact with) The original term
for fujoshi was “yurizoku”
(lily tribe), which came
from a gay men’s magazine column (“yurizoku no heya” / “Lily Tribe’s
room”) in the 70s/80s and referred to their female readers. (originally
published in the November 1976 edition of “Barazoku”) Because so many of
these female readers were lesbian or bisexual, the shortened term
“yuri” eventually came to mean fxf relationships in manga and novels.
Even today, many Japanese people will associate fujoshi with lesbians
(see: My Lesbian Experience With Loneliness, or the many characters, like Chizuru Honshou from Bleach who is an out and proud lesbian and fujoshi).

You know despite, again, BL and yaoi reflects nothing realistic
about gay men or the gay community.

It depends
on the series as to the realism, but if we’re talking erotica, well,
it’s not mean to be realistic, is it?  I don’t read geicomi expecting
there to be pages of enemas for anal sex prep and lube and condoms, and I
don’t think many other gay men will, either. In fact, I think that kind
of thing would be rather offputting toward the goal of getting off.

Hell the stuff that reaches the
mainstream often goes out of its way to no homo the characters in some
way.

Not sure what you mean by this. I think this may be a western misconception about being out in Japan?

I don’t think it’s any coincidence you turn up your nose at geicomi,
porn actually aimed at gay men, while idolizing your porn aimed at
straight women that typically features a grown man and a girlish boy a
his mercy.

I love geicomi, huge Tagame fan here! I
also love Takeshi Matsu and Itto Mentaiko! Many of the people you’re
talking to here are also into geicomi as well as BL. The idea that there’s
this huge rift between the geicomi and BL industry is a western
misconception. Like I mentioned before, Tagame and many other geicomi
writers will write specifically for BL anthologies and BL magazines, and
many BL writers will write for geicomi and geicomi anthologies. They
work together for the most part. Mxm comics that are more softcore or
romantic in nature tend to be marketed as BL, and mxm comics that are
more hardcore or sexual in nature tend to be marketed as geicomi.
Crossover genres like kinniku BL are becoming more and more popular as
well, and a lot of stuff will be marketed as both.

Also, wrt
porn featuring grown men and girlish boys (as in boys that actually look
like girls and are crossdressing), that stuff is actually aimed at and
marketed to men, as a fetish. (see: otokonoko genre, boku no pico etc.)

Otokonoko Genre features both girl-on-crossdresser and
guy-on-crossdresser stories. Although guy-on-guy otokonoko is often
mistaken for Boys Love Genre, anything targeted to women is not
otokonoko. An otokonoko character must be anatomically male but look
convincingly like an attractive girl. Most identify as male, but even
when the character identifies as female, few works try to deal with
actual Transgender issues in anything like a realistic way. Since
otokonoko is mainly an otaku thing, otokonoko are quite likely to wear
Sailor Fuku, Maid, Miko, Cat Girl or Naughty Nurse Outfits as well as
“ordinary” female clothes.

If you mean the entire
seme/uke dynamic with the more androgynous or younger male being the
bottom, that comes from nenja/chigo, from classical nanshoku (male-male
sexual relationships in pre-modern Japan). (x) (x) That isn’t all that common anymore, and more BL nowadays tends to have switches or older male bottoms.

Before
Tagame came onto the scene, bringing inspiration from western artists
like Tom of Finland with a focus on masculinity and muscular bodies,
androgyny was considered ideal for people of any gender or sexuality,
even with the westernization that took place in the Meiji era and its
rejection of homosexuality. (All through the Edo era, shunga prints of
onnagata and wakashuu-gata kabuki actors and male prostitutes were
popular with both men and women and expected to have a dual-market
appeal)

Even today, in Japan androgyny is still considered
the heterosexual ideal, with the wispy and beautiful men being assumed
to be “straight,” and it’s the muscular and hairy men that are seen as
and stereotyped as “gay” by the general public. (x)

Even
the Japanese word “ikahomo”, meaning a stereotypical gay man, refers to
men who are beefy or stocky-looking, with beard or stubble, and have
short or cropped hair. (x)

Doesn’t really change my point much since yaoi and BL is unrealistic,
fetishistic, and incidentally geared toward female desire. It,
again, was no different in the old fandom days where two girls
cosplaying their favorite yaoi ship would be making out because that was
a safe expression of their sexuality for them.

Wait,
so… you acknowledge that many lesbians read and write BL and commonly
use it as a way to come out about their attraction to women safely by
introducing them to the concept that women can have desires… and then
at the same time it’s a problem because BL is marketed to women and is
geared toward female desire? Really unsure what point you’re making.

No radfems just started using “fujo” as a way to refer to the number
of uwu soft nonbinary trans boys out there who are clearly taking tons
of cues from their favorite boy on boy porn doujins.

So…Regardless
of how you feel about gender identity, why on earth would you
reweaponize a reclaimed misogynistic insult that was originally used by
homophobes and misogynists to refer to women with an interest in gay
romance and were thus were ruined/rotten, unmarriable and undesirable by
straight men (many of whom did, in fact, later come out as lesbians), and then use that insult toward people you see as women?
Isn’t that incredibly anti-feminist?

People in general
shouldn’t be using porn as an educational tool, but that doesn’t mean
erotica has to stop existing because young people may have confused
expectations about sexuality by watching/reading stuff containing sexual
fantasies. Clearly the answer is better sex-education, not to vilify
them.

There’s always been
anti-yaoi/BL people who are doing it out of homophobia and hating
anything women like.

Yeah, well, we can certainly agree on that.

Hell I’m not even saying it’s necessarily bad to like the stuff.

So what, exactly, is your point?

But when you got young straight women calling themselves gay men then we have a problem.

So you’re just using it as an excuse to antagonize young people
that you consider to be ‘female’ for your own personal agenda. That’s why you’re ignoring the cis gays and AMAB people in the comments who disagree with you. Got it.

Since this user wants senpai to notice them here we go.

I don’t believe anyone stated that BL doesn’t contain problematic themes – just that geicomi also contains them.

Yeah? And again it wasn’t the point. The point is what gay men write for themselves and a gay audience is very different. Because BL/yaoi has nothing to actually do with homosexuality and is primarily aimed at heterosexual women with heteronormativity firmly in place. That has been my point this entire time.

Therefore when straight women start calling themselves gay men because they fantasize about being able to be like the unrealistic world in BL/yaoi it’s extra offensive. Cause if you can’t tell I don’t buy into all the gender nonsense and straight women calling themselves gay men in the first place is pretty offensive.

But ya’ll seemed to ignore that point and just went “but Tagame writes bad things that are also in the things we like!”

This seems like a personal annecdote.

Yeah. It is. Because I’m fandom old and am seeing the exact same pattern now as back then, just with the current transgender boom tossed on top.

How does it negate my point? Which you are kind of derailing from with the rest of your paragraph.

Hell the stuff that reaches the mainstream often goes out of its way to no homo the characters in some way.

Not sure what you mean by this. I think this may be a western misconception about being out in Japan?

You know. Series relying on the “it’s okay if its you” trope. Where characters are basically heterosexual and just incidentally gay for one person. Or the “I saw him dressed as a girl first and I’m still attracted now” trope.

I don’t think it’s any coincidence you turn up your nose at geicomi, porn actually aimed at gay men, while idolizing your porn aimed at straight women that typically features a grown man and a girlish boy a his mercy.

I love geicomi, huge Tagame fan here! I also love Takeshi Matsu and Itto Mentaiko! Many of the people you’re talking to here are also into geicomi as well as BL. The idea that there’s this huge rift between the geicomi and BL industry is a western misconception.

You realize I was addressing OP right? The one I was initially replying to?

Also, wrt porn featuring grown men and girlish boys (as in boys that actually look like girls and are crossdressing), that stuff is actually aimed at and marketed to men, as a fetish. (see: otokonoko genre, boku no pico etc.)

Yes I’m sure your deep knowledge of pedophilic anime is impressive, but I was talking about doujins which typically feminize the “uke” male character in the pairing.

If you mean the entire seme/uke dynamic with the more androgynous or younger male being the bottom, that comes from nenja/chigo, from classical nanshoku (male-male sexual relationships in pre-modern Japan). (x) (x) That isn’t all that common anymore, and more BL nowadays tends to have switches or older male bottoms.

Oh you did realize that, you just wanted to talk about Boku no Pico for some reason. Yes many ancient and classical cultures practiced pederasty between an adult man and a teenage boy. 

That, again, doesn’t change my point, again, that modern BL/yaoi is aimed at females and female desire and has nothing to actually do with gay men. So the straight girls in my time who would joke about being a gay man deep down are the same straight girls today who are calling themselves a gay man because the current cultural climate allows it.

And because a disturbing number of people happily announce they found their “gender identity” through porn.

Even today, in Japan androgyny is still considered the heterosexual ideal, with the wispy and beautiful men being assumed to be “straight,” and it’s the muscular and hairy men that are seen as and stereotyped as “gay” by the general public.

Um. Yeah. Exactly. Which just reflects my point that, again, the stuff actually consumed by actual gay men is pretty different.

Wait, so… you acknowledge that many lesbians read and write BL and commonly use it as a way to come out about their attraction to women safely by introducing them to the concept that women can have desires… and then at the same time it’s a problem because BL is marketed to women and is geared toward female desire? Really unsure what point you’re making.

See try to pay attention to what I’m writing rather than prepping to info dump: the problem is straight women calling themselves gay men because they’re drawing influence from a fetishistic, unrealistic depiction of male homosexuality primarily created by and consumed by straight women. 

So…Regardless of how you feel about gender identity, why on earth would you reweaponize a reclaimed misogynistic insult that was originally used by homophobes

Because sometimes we’re tired and need jokes. And because the women doing this are themselves homophobic.

So you’re just using it as an excuse to antagonize young people that you consider to be ‘female’ for your own personal agenda. That’s why you’re ignoring the cis gays and AMAB people in the comments who disagree with you. Got it.

Yeah female and male aren’t agendas they’re biological realities. So is sexual orientation. So when “cis gays” are being inundated with heterosexuals co-opting our struggles they don’t understand, disparaging our sexuality while claiming they’re one of us, we have a problem. And what I’m describing here is only a small part of that problem. But you know, I’m staying on topic.

This is getting really long, so I’m putting it under a read more.

Keep reading

I feel like this thread proves that being anti-fujoshi is transphobic.

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